Transcript
John Spong (voice-over): Hey there, Iâm John Spong with Texas Monthly magazine, and this is One By Willie, a podcast in which I talk each week to one notable Willie Nelson fan about one Willie song that they really love. The show is brought to you by White Claw Hard Seltzer.
This week, we visit with one of Willieâs go-to duet partners, Norah Jonesâa nine-time Grammy-winning singer-songwriter and jazz vocalist par excellenceâabout another of his old Pamper Demos, âPermanently Lonely.â Itâs a song she calls both poetic and harsh, and in a first for the show, she actually plays a little piano to illustrate whatâs so interesting to her about the way Willie put it together, referring to the song as a âbeautiful puzzle.â Sheâll also recall the way she leaned on Willieâs music when she first left Texas for New York City, the first time she ever got to sing with Willie, and the wonderfully weird way she came to appear on our show. And a hint as to that last thought: like all Willie stories, itâs about family. So letâs do it.
[Willie Nelson singing âPermanently Lonelyâ]
John Spong: Whatâs so cool about the Willie song âPermanently Lonelyâ?
Norah Jones: Oh, hey. I picked this song because itâs just one of my favorites. I mean, itâs a devastating song in so many ways, I feel like. And also so cleverâitâs got his sense of humor in it. And itâs just, musically, one of the most interesting chord progressions. So, itâs got all those things.Â
John Spong: Thatâs every base, with a runner on it. Thatâs kind of great.Â
Norah Jones: Yeah, it covers a lot of cool things. Youâre lucky with a song if you get one of those things, I feel like.
John Spong: [Laughs] Well then, letâs do. Letâs spin it.Â
Norah Jones: Do you have the Demo Sessions version?
John Spong: I do indeed.
Norah Jones: Okay. Yeah, thatâs the one I know well. I didnât realize it was on several albums, actuallyâdifferent versionsâbut, makes sense.
John Spong: Well, itâs the magic of Willie. He goes back to the catalog, which, a long time ago, I thought was maybe what you do when you donât have enough songs for the next record. I donât feel that way about Willie anymore. Heâs always got enough, but he likes to revisit stuff, and he makes it different each time.
Norah Jones: Yeah, I like that too. Well, songs are kind of alive like that, and they justâthey change as you grow.
[Willie Nelson singing âPermanently Lonelyâ: â. . . That those who play with fire get burned / But Iâll be all right in a little while / But youâll be permanently lonley.â]
Norah Jones: [Laughs] Harsh, man.
John Spong: Tell me about that. Iâve heard you say itâs harsh beforeâwhatâre you getting at?
Norah Jones: Super harsh. I mean, itâs so beautiful, and . . . itâs the most beautiful, poetic middle finger youâll ever hear. You know what I mean? Thatâs what I love about it, is you can be mean, but to do it so crafted, in such a beautiful andâI donât know. I think that song is just such a work of art. It says everything you need in the first verse, in a way. And then every verse is very poetic, and itâs just like, you get a real picture of who heâs talking about, and you hope youâre not it.
John Spong: [Laughs] And, I mean, in the second verseââDonât salve my heart with sympathy.â Salve is not a word that shows up in a lot of country songs, least of all in the early sixties.
Norah Jones: Totally. And itâs one of those words where if youâre trying to cover a song, itâs tricky to sing. So he works it in well.
John Spong: Itâs a challenge for everybody that comes after, too. âHope youâre up to the task.â And where do you hear the weird chord stuff? Because I canât hear that. Iâm not a musician.
Norah Jones: Well, itâs just cool. I mean, I know from trying to cover this song before that it took me a minute, and it was tricky, but it all sounds like a very beautiful puzzle thatâs put together perfectly. You know, itâs like [Norah Jones playing piano], and then you go to the three, and then minor, and then you go to the four, and then it goes through the same patternâmajor third . . . six minor. I donât know. I just think itâs a really beautifully put together chord structure, personally.
John Spong: And that wonderful thing that I hadnât paid attention to until I really was digging in for thisâârunning lonelyâ at the end comes from out of nowhere. And it almost makes you wonder about everything you just heard, because itâs such a crazy place to end it.
Norah Jones: Well, ârunningââyeah, it almost seems like a little throwaway at the end. But it also wraps it up pretty great, I think. And it ends on an odd chordâitâs like not resolved or something at the end.
[Willie Nelson singing âPermanently Lonelyâ]
John Spong: Thatâs what I mean, yeah.
Norah Jones: Yeah, the person, maybe, has no resolve.
John Spong: Well, and the bridge tooâwhich I should have even mentioned beforeâthe bridge is kind of nuts, and the way he packs all those words in at the end.
Norah Jones: It isâand the chords there too. He goes the four [Norah Jones singing and playing], and then it changes the structure and then goes back. I donât know. I just love it. âYou know that the future is not very pretty for your kindââthatâs just so harsh. But itâs great. Itâs so honest, really. Itâs such a honest, biting eulogy to a relationship, you know? A toxic one, I guess.
Or maybe itâs about himself . . . you know what I mean? Like, you never know with songs. It could have been written about something completely opposite than what we think. Thatâs the beauty of a song like this. Itâs like, seems so clear, but you never know, really. But . . . you know, heâs got all that Django Reinhardt influence in his guitar playing, and in the chords, and in the chord voicings he uses, even. Instead of, likeâ[Norah Jones playing piano]âinstead of that, itâs likeâ[playing again]. I donât know, heâs just got such cool ways of playing things.
[Willie Nelson singing âPermanently Lonelyâ]
John Spong: Well, howâd you find this song?
Norah Jones: Iâve always loved Willie since I was a little kid, but I didnât really know . . . I didnât go too deep until I was in my twenties. When I moved to New York, I missed Texas, and I got really deep into Willie. And I think it might have been around the time they repackaged the Demo Sessions, which, correct me if Iâm wrong, did that used to be The IRS Tapes? I donât know. I canât remember. Is it separate?
John Spong: Itâs separate. Itâs separate. The IRS Tapes are these wonderful acoustic recordings of lesser known songs. And if I understand the story right, Willie was working on them when the IRS thing happened, and the IRS comes in and basically takes everything, but they didnât get those tracks. So Willie puts them all together and releases them himself, with the idea that the sales would help pay off his IRS debt. And wonderfully, he sells them through late-night TV, through a 1-800 number. But yeah, thatâs a different, later version than the one we just heard. And itâs cool, because when you talk about a song evolving, Willieâs guitar playing on this very simple home demo that we just listened to, from probably â62 or â63âbecause I think Timi Yuro had the first commercial release of this in â64â
Norah Jones: Oh, I didnât know that. See, I donât know the history of this song, in that way.Â
John Spong: He did that, and then he put it out on an RCA record in â68, and itâs beautiful. And then, when he does it for the IRS records, heâs got Trigger in his life, and his guitar playingâyou can hear the Django so clearly in that, in a way you canât in this demo.
Norah Jones: Yeah, so thatâs different than this version. This is the demo version from the beginning?
John Spong: Yeah.
Norah Jones: Well, so I got into that Demo [Sessions] album, which is so beautiful and itâs so starkâitâs this song; itâs his original version of âCrazy.â Itâs âThree Days.â Itâs âIâve Just Destroyed the World (Iâm Living In)ââall those songs, but super stripped-down, with, like, just him and guitar and a little pedal steel in a couple spots. Itâs so cool. I just love that. Iâve always loved that album. And yeah, his version of this is super simple, actually, listening to it just now. Itâs been a while since I listened to it, but itâs really slow, and itâs really simple. And itâs really, reallyâeven harsher, I feel like, that way. The delivery is way more deadly.
John Spong: Yeah. I read in a New York Times story about you, about how growing up, Red Headed Stranger was your favorite record, and you loved listening to it, but you wanted to play jazz, and so, you said, when you listened to Bill Evans, you transcribed the chords, but when you put Red Headed Stranger on, it was just to enjoy it. At some point, Willie becomes an artist that you regard like you do Bill Evans, it sounds like. Itâs different.
Norah Jones: I guess. I mean, I donât remember saying that, but that makes sense. I donât think I wouldnât have said that. But, I mean, I also listened to Bill Evans for enjoyment, plenty, back then. Well, Red Headed Stranger was my grandpaâs favorite album.
John Spong: Oh wow.
Norah Jones: And my grandparents lived in Oklahoma. And so I just remember hearing that growing up, and knowingâbecause he died when I was young, so my mom would always say âBlue Eyes Crying in the Rainâ was his favorite song. So I just always kind of kept that in my memory.
But yeah, I guess, like I said, when I moved to New York, I started really yearning for Texas-isms. I missed Texas. And so I started listening to a ton of more country and a lot of Willie. I got into Townes Van Zandt for the first time . . . because I grew upâI mean, my mom had a great record collection, but I never listened to Townes until I moved to New York. I just didnât know about him. So, you know, I had plenty of gaps to fill in, but yeah, Willie was running through the water. But, yeah, I really missed it. I missed it so much. And so I got obsessed with Willie, and I evenâI started a band with some friends called the Little Willies. We actually covered this song on our second album. I didnât sing leadâmy friend Richard Julian didâbut thatâs when I remember really digging into the chords and being completely confused at first. But itâs weird. Now it all makes sense to me. It feels veryâlike a little bit of a chordal pattern, but then not always. Then you go to those weird ones every once in a while, but they make sense, because I think once you know a song so well, even if itâs weirdâif itâs got weird chord choices, as it were, once you have it in your head, they make sense.
[Willie Nelson and Norah Jones singing âPermanently Lonelyâ]
John Spong: Yeah. Howâd you get to know Willie?
Norah Jones: Well, my first record was about to come out on Blue Note Records, and someone at my label gave it to . . . oh, it was one of his guitar players at the time. It wasnât Jody . . . this was in like, 2001, and someone knew someone, and they gave the demo to Mark, his manager, and all of a sudden I had four opening dates for Willie at the Fillmore in San Francisco, which is such a cool place. And my record hadnât come out yet. It was about to come outâmy first record. And I remember doing those gigs with a trio. It was just me on Wurlitzer, and bass and guitar. I donât think we even had drumsâor maybe we did. I donât know. Obviously, my brain is not working today. But I remember I hadnât met him yet. And then on the third or fourth night, Mickey Raphael, who had been super kind to us and [whom] we got to know a little bit that week, he said, âOh yeah, Willie said you should sit in tonight.â
I was like, âWhat? I donât know what youâre talking about. I havenât met him yet. My gosh.â Like, that sounded weird to me. I was like, âIs there a sound check?â âNope, nope, nope, no rehearsal, just come on up. Is there a song you want to do thatâs in the set?â And I donât know if they picked it or I picked it, but I knew the Kristofferson song âHelp Me Make It Through the Nightâ real well. And so that became the song I was going to come out on. And Iâll never forget going out there, being like, is there a security guard thatâs going to tackle me? Is he going to announce me? Am I supposed to just walk out there like a crazy person? Like, whatâs supposed to happen? And then he announced meââPlease welcome . . . Norah Jones!â And Iâm like, âOh my God, Willie just said my name.â
So I went out and I stood there, and heâs definitely one of the funner people to sing with. Even though I know he has crazy phrasing, and people think itâs hard to sing with him, when heâs singing harmonies with someone or having someone sing with him, heâs very giving. Heâs very easy to follow. Heâs trying to follow you as well.
John Spong: Wow.
Norah Jones: But, you know, he took the first verse, and he just kind of nodded at me and stood back from the mic, and I took the second verse, and then we did harmonies on the . . . I mean, it just all kind of fell in line.
John Spong: Oh man.
Norah Jones: And then I didnât meet him again. I still hadnât met him. And so after the show, we stood in lineâbecause he always had a line up the block, at the tour bus, to sign for people, and he would sign every autographâand we waited at the back of the line, after a few drinks, and we just said good night to him. He was so nice. And then I got an invite about six months later to play his seventyâI want to say seventieth birthday.
John Spong: Oh wow. Right. Yeah.
Norah Jones: It was taped at the Ryman. And again, I wasnât hanging out with him. I barely met him at that Fillmore gig, and then at the Ryman, they chose the song âLonestarâ from my album, of course, because it has a Texas title, basically. And he was super sweet. And then from there, Iâve sang on a couple of his albums after that and performed at a couple other Willie specials, you know what I mean? Heâs always got . . . And got to know him over the years, in that way. But yeah, heâs a special one. And itâs been my thrill to have gotten to sing with him and play with him and hang with him.
John Spong: The humble note in there is the thing you left outâwhen Mickey Raphael told me about the Fillmore gigs last week, he saidâ
Norah Jones: He did? Oh, cool.
John Spong: He and Rothbaum both said, âYou have to ask her about that.â But what Mickey added, that you left out, was then your album came out the next week, and in subsequent weeks they were essentially going to be opening for you going forward.
Norah Jones: [Laughs] Well, thatâs not how I thought about it. In fact, my mom tells a funny storyâbecause I got those four dates at the Fillmore, and my mom flew from Texas with five of her friends and was like, âWell, this is going to be the biggest thing she ever does, so we better go.â And they did. And, I mean, we just had so much funâalso because it was four nights. So it was like we just hung out, and it was super fun. And I got a real sense of Willieâs band. I got to hang with Bobbie a little bit and just worshipped her. I worshipped her. I mean, I really think so much of my piano-playing influence comes from Bobbie. People always say that the country thing in my piano playing is from Floyd Cramer, but I reallyâit was from listening to Willie and hearing Bobbie play. And so, yeah, everybody was so sweet. They were all just like the nicest crew, and even the techs and everything. Over the years, just seeing that whole Family Band and the crew and everything has beenâit just feels good, like family.
John Spong: And so much of it is actual family members, but then the people that they bring in become family, and itâs a really good way to organize your life, no matter what you do. Theyâre just good people.
Norah Jones: Yeah. Or it can go to sâ real quickly. [Laughs] Depends. But yeah, it feels good.
[Willie Nelson and Norah Jones singing âLonestarâ]